Same sex (homosexual) marriage

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8 responses to “Same sex (homosexual) marriage”

1. 

   Matthew

   June 26, 2010

   Only the Bible provides a basis for marriage? Then what do you think of the Bible condoning a father having sex with his two daughters, as Lot did? (Genesis 19:36) Or advising to keep women locked up when they’re menstruating? (Leviticus 15:19)

   It is idiotic, narrow-minded, and IGNORANT to blindly follow a document of mythology that was written 1500 years ago, simply because someone else tells you it’s “true”. Comparing same sex marriage to incest is a specious, wrong-headed argument, especially if you’re using a text as irrelevant and contrary as the Bible as your defense. If you’re going to quote Scripture to back yourself up, then embrace all of it, including the incest and female-hating parts.

   Guess what? No one’s advocating for sibling marriage. Letting same sex couples won’t open the floodgates to people marrying toasters or their sisters. Why don’t you give ME a serious, RATIONAL argument as to why letting two people of the same gender marry is going to hurt you, or hurt God. Why do you care so much? Why do you care about this issue, and not the fact that your current Pope stood by as several Catholic priests were molesting children??? That is real hurt right there, that is a lifetime of emotional suffering that could have been stopped, if your Pope had done anything. Why don’t you take all this energy and put it toward an actual, real problem? Go down to Louisiana and clean up oil-covered animals. Go build a house for your neighbors at Habitat for Humanity. But for God’s, and the rest of our sakes, stop using the Bible to impede the inalienable rights granted to all people in this country by the Constitution.

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   1. 

      Michael

      June 27, 2010

      Hey Matthew – to be factual, the bible does not condone what happened with Lot at all. And if you are going to reference the incest that DID occur in the bible, you’ll see that it was necessary during the early times because there was no one else on earth except close relatives. Once the law was given in Leviticus 18, the Bible explicitly DID NOT condone incest. It seems like we have a different assumption, you assume the Bible is mythology and I do not. As long as you start by assuming that, you will not believe anything in it.

      My question was posed to point out as you did that as long as marriage is defined as two consenting adults, and not more narrowly, floodgates will open. You offer no reason why floodgates will not open, you just state that they will not. I am sure 100 years ago no one thought same sex marriage floodgates would open either.

      Finally, and more importantly, there is no such thing as “my Pope.” I absolutely reject Catholicism as a false religion. I believe it is evil, satanic and the horrendous atrocities committed by these priests and the pope not only in recent years but since AD 300 are despicable. Now the reason is that they do not teach the truth about Christ, the Bible and salvation, so they are blaspheming God and leading people into Hell.

      I am using my energy to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that salvation from sin is by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. This actually is the real problem, Matthew; our sin is the cause of the damage we see in this world. And only faith in Christ will help people. I’m sorry that it seems clear that a lot of people that profess Christ must have really hurt you or at least been quite hypocritical and downright evil at times. Praise God that you are able to see that difference through your conscience. Now turn your conscience toward the God that created you and ask yourself if you’ll meet His standards on the Day of Judgment.

      Reply
2. 

   Bill

   June 26, 2010

   OK, here’s the issue and why your comments are totally off-base:

   Marriage, as you define it, is a Biblical pact. Fine. That’s your take on marriage. However, marriage is also a legal agreement in most countries, with legal ramifications that have absolutely nothing to do with your Bible.

   Those of us who support gay marriage do so because we believe that two consenting adults who wish to share the benefits of that legal pact should have the right to do so. Marriage is not about children, there is absolutely no clause anywhere, not even in your Bible, that says married couples must bare children. Marriage as it is legally defined in the western world, is about the right to share home loans, share investments, share insurance, share lives free of harassment, and yes, if you choose to: share parentage.

   If you insist that religion is the basis for marriage, then you’ll have to explain why your interpretation of your religion is right and everyone else’s interpretation of their religions is wrong. Good luck with that. Christianity is neither the largest nor the oldest practicing religion (see: Hinduism), so you have neither a majority nor a precedent on your side.

   On the other hand, if you want to have a discussion about eliminating state recognition of marriage, we can have that discussion. I might even approve.

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   1. 

      Michael

      June 27, 2010

      Hey Bill. I just stated that only the Bible provides a basis for marriage. I agree that marriage is a legal pact, just like not murdering and stealing are legal ideas as well. All laws are the exercise of someone’s ideology on the people who are under that civil law. It is when there are divergent ideas that the actual legal content becomes in question. Clearly all of humanity is not in agreement on many laws, just look at some different laws around the world!

      So by your definition of marriage, can I correctly conclude that two brothers or a brother and a sister ought to be allowed to marry? As long as they are “two consenting adults who wish to share the benefits of that legal pact should have the right to do so.”

      Is that really where you stand? If not, then can you more narrowly define marriage for me?

      Reply
3. 

   Matthew

   June 27, 2010

   Michael,

   What exactly are you afraid of here? Do you really believe that if marriage is defined as a legal pact between two consenting adults, there’s going to be a sudden rush of brothers and sisters marrying? In fact, the way the law is written right now, there’s nothing to STOP a brother and a sister from marrying. If they legally changed their names, and elected to get married, there’s really nothing legally right now to stop them. Whereas it is illegal for two consenting adults of the same gender to get married in several states. Something’s pretty wrong there.

   But let’s actually talk about the issue, instead of coming up with random arguments against something that may or may not happen. In fact, let’s talk New Testament, because Leviticus was way before Jesus’ time. I’m glad you’re a follower of Jesus’ teachings, because he had some great things to say about how to treat your fellow human. Things like “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” (Matthew 7:1) And “If any man come to me, and hate his father, and his mother, and his wife, and his children, and his brethren, and his sisters, and yea, his own life also, then he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26)

   If you’re a true follower of Christ, then I believe and hope you should allow your fellow man and woman the same rights that you have. 60 years ago, it was illegal for a white man and black woman to get married. I assume you think that’s wrong. How, when you really think about it, is two people of the same gender getting married any different? More importantly, how does it hurt anyone else?

   You are allowed to believe and worship and say whatever you want, that’s your right as an American. HOWEVER, when your beliefs and statements INFRINGE upon the rights of another human being, then you need to ask yourself: are you helping or hurting the world? What would Jesus do?

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   1. 

      Michael

      June 28, 2010

      What exactly are you afraid of here?

      I’m only afraid of God. Nothing in this world actually scares me. Your real question is next.

      Do you really believe that if marriage is defined as a legal pact between two consenting adults, there’s going to be a sudden rush of brothers and sisters marrying?

      No, I do not. I’m not trying to prevent sibling marriage with my line of reasoning. I’m trying to show that the same line of reasoning used to justify same sex marriage justifies any type of marriage (excluding children). I just want you to think through your beliefs, and question the foundation of them once you realize they lead to absurdity or obvious immorality and disgrace.

      But let’s actually talk about the issue, instead of coming up with random arguments against something that may or may not happen.

      Interesting, my question was not random, but rather well thought out. Attacking my question doesn’t do anything except discredit you, actually. It would be better to actually answer the question I asked, which was “why should we prohibit brother and sister marriage, e.g.?” If you think we should not, then that’s a valid answer as well. You just don’t like the fact that you cannot find a reason to prohibit brother-sister marriage that does not also prohibit same sex marriage. Your conscience hasn’t been seared enough to know that’s wrong, but your pride won’t allow you to look at the comparison honestly. I would not be offended if someone else compared heterosexual marriage to beastiality, because I know and understand the difference and have valid reasoning why one is ok and one is not.

      In fact, let’s talk New Testament, because Leviticus was way before Jesus’ time. I’m glad you’re a follower of Jesus’ teachings, because he had some great things to say about how to treat your fellow human. Things like “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” (Matthew 7:1)

      All Scripture is God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16) so Leviticus is as relevant as Jesus spoken words.

      Matthew 7:1 is often taken out of context. Read my post on that verse and also refer to John 7:24 if you are going to try to say that I am contradicting my Lord’s commands by judging.

      And “If any man come to me, and hate his father, and his mother, and his wife, and his children, and his brethren, and his sisters, and yea, his own life also, then he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26)

      If you’re a true follower of Christ, then I believe and hope you should allow your fellow man and woman the same rights that you have.

      I do. I am actually doing what you and everyone else does when they vote. I am putting my opinions and beliefs as they pertain to morality out there. When you support a same sex marriage you are doing the same thing. When you support sending a criminal to jail for stealing or murder you are imposing your idea of morality on that person. It is how society works. It just so happens there are issues that people differ greatly on as the result of differing worldviews.

      And as far as “same rights” goes, I think that men and women ought to be able to marry members of the opposite sex, the same right I have.

      60 years ago, it was illegal for a white man and black woman to get married. I assume you think that’s wrong. How, when you really think about it, is two people of the same gender getting married any different?

      It is different because the Bible is clear that there is only one race, the human race. Therefore, discrimination that has been in effect due to skin color differences is only the result of the evil in the hearts of men, (Evil I harbored until the grace of God got a hold of me, in fact) and because the Bible is clear that homosexuality is sinful. Sin hurts the individual, and sin permeates the society. This is a Biblical concept about sin. If you do not believe the Bible is God’s Word, then you are accurate.

      More importantly, how does it hurt anyone else?

      Sin hurts everyone. Romans 5:12 is an simple explanation of the curse we are all under for sin. The sin that started all of it was the simple eating of a fruit. Hardly as horrible sounding as murder or other atrocities we see today from man’s viewpoint. But from the Creator God’s viewpoint, all sin is an abomination; an idolatrous attempt for man to play God and take God down from His rightful spot on the throne of all. It also hurts the sinner, and it is the ultimate act of love to try to protect others, if possible.

      You are allowed to believe and worship and say whatever you want, that’s your right as an American. HOWEVER, when your beliefs and statements INFRINGE upon the rights of another human being, then you need to ask yourself: are you helping or hurting the world? What would Jesus do?

      Jesus very clearly spoke out against sin and commanded people to repent of their sin and believe the gospel. Why do you think you should be allowed to decide what each person’s right is and what constitutes infringement? What if I said you telling me I had to live in a society with homosexual was an infringement of my rights? Silly, isn’t it? You spend your post judging me to be wrong, all the while condemning me for judging. God will judge, I simply want people to know that. And while I wait for Him, I will stand up and speak out for what’s right, in His sight, by His Word.

      The point is, Matthew, that because we have different starting assumption, we draw different conclusions. The difference is I get my morality from an external source. A book called the Bible that God inspired men to write. It is perfect and if studied honestly and correctly provides the key to everlasting life and forgiveness. I do not know what your starting point is. You do not have a basis for why you believe what you believe. You are blown by the wind of whatever makes you feel comfortable in your sin and it is because you do not want to give up your sin that you won’t believe God’s Word. You need an absolute standard and you do not have one, and the only one that is infallible is the Bible.

      I do not want to be argumentative, but rational. I trust you disagree with my opinions, but I hope you find the discussion to be one that show you rational thought. I am not a homo-phobe or any of the stereotypical gay-bashers you may think I am. I am a sinner saved by grace from a God and by a God to whom I owe it all. I simply believe what the Bible says about God’s design for marriage and sexuality.

      By the way, I am also opposed to heterosexual activity outside of marriage and pornography and things of that sort.

      Reply
4. 

   Juliane

   June 28, 2010

   I do feel like part of the reason that we all get into this muddle is – as Bill says – marriage is a catchall for both the religious concept of marriage and the legal concept of civil unions. If we separated them, all the legal rights could be bundled up and civil union and each religious sect could decide whether to bless a marriage or not.

   If you wanted the term “marriage” to only cover the religious bond, you’d still have to deal with the Episcopalians, Congregationalists, Unitarians and other Christians who believe in the Bible and bless same-sex unions.

   I’m having trouble with the whole comparison of homosexual “marriage” to brother-sister “marriage,” because I can’t see the connection between them, nor the slippery slope you fear. On a fundamental level, I have absolutely no problem with two consenting adults who love each other and/or want to spend their lives together doing so, and even taking advantage of whatever secular and religious pacts of devotion they want to enter into.

   But I also feel that it’s none of my business to approve or disapprove. I have many, many gay friends who are incredibly loving, devoted to each other and make – or will make – brilliant parents. Some of them are deeply Christian. I know not a single potential brother-sister union (though we may see more as sperm bank use continues). If I did, I might have some kind of “that’s weird” reaction (because I’m not sure I’m Jesus-like enough to avoid some judgment) but I would never condemn them. Because it’s none of my business.

   It takes nothing away from me to love someone for their choices when they aren’t hurting anyone.

   When Christianity is inclusive and loving, I do not fear it! But I mistrust anyone who selectively slings Scripture to condemn or exclude. The Bible is a messy and inconsistent document. Following the spirit of Jesus seems much more relevant here than selectively applying some of the nastier passages, or blindly following “faithful” who have a hate-filled political agenda.

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5. 

   Michael

   June 28, 2010

   For the record, a Christian will not continue in a homosexual lifestyle as they have become a new creature in Christ. If you believe you’ve been born again of the spirit of God, you should have a battle with your flesh in this regard, as with all sin.

   The Bible is not a messy and inconsistent document. Some translations may be, but the Bible itself is perfect, as given by God. Much of it is hard to understand, I do agree with that though.

   It seems like people are more angry that I clearly oppose same sex marriage than in logically talking about the issue. Accusing me of blindly following something is called an ad hominem attack, a logical fallacy. Please folks, do your homework and don’t just vent your feelings, but make rational arguments.

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